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    Civicminded -- a couple of answers

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    Dave Z

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    Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Dave Z on Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:33 pm

    I did not want to step on Mary's post so I started this new thread. You were concerned about a structure just off line at the NY Safety Track. It was a survey marker and has been removed. There will be many possible configurations for the combo Pocono South/East course. Final configurations - we'll look to mix it up - and pricing have yet to be determined.
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    civicminded

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  civicminded on Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:15 am

    Dave. There were 5 possible courses being considered for Pocono East/ South. One of them used the South banking and proceeded directly into East. Speeds for this configuration, would be very high. I highly recommend using the chicane after South banking and then proceed onto the East section. In previous meetings at East only, the concrete barrier at drivers right, at the left turn into the infield, welcomed some of our racers. This change would slow the cars, and allow for safer racing.
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    wreckerboy

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  wreckerboy on Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:54 pm

    Civic -

    The East course you describe has long had that tricky entrance. I agree, the chicane would be a good thing. HOWEVER, a few tips in case you (or anybody else reading this) find yourself using it in the "traditional" lay out:

    1. When coming off NASCAR 1 and approaching the braking zone, I have found that setting up at least 0.5 to 1 car width off of the wall is key. The pavement is off-camber out at the wall, and setting up as wide as possible there can lead to some, shall we say, "interesting" braking zone movement. In my case (Spec Miata) it meant all sorts of wonderful tail wagging. According to the flaggers there, my approach was always entertaining there.

    2. There is a bump at the apex there which can make the car move over a solid half lane.

    3. The exit of the corner is also off-camber as well.

    My approach was always to set up as described in note 1, get all of my braking done in a straight line, and late apex the living daylights out of the thing, while applying judicious amounts of power. Given that my SSM car makes a rip-roaring 97 WHP, you get the idea that judicious in this case is serious.

    Also- avoid target fixation! In many cases, the people that have found that wall have been worried about it all day long and eventually drove right into it under braking, watching it loom ever larger in their windshields. If you find yourself over doing the entrance, bail early and straight line it down the NASCAR straight.
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    quikgt

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  quikgt on Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:26 pm

    I vividly remember an accident with a Subaru at that lefthander, around 2007, which shut down our track time for a while. The Subaru was badly damaged but thankfully there were no serious injuries.
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    Oleg P

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Oleg P on Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:31 pm

    From my observation the East course looked completely cleared of pavement during construction. There are no guarantees that camber or pavement angles are going to be the same they were before. Look at South to oval transitions before and after paving. Maybe someone should drive all the possible courses after they are paved before discussing them.
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    Spartacus913

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Spartacus913 on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:12 pm

    Have you seen map of all possible new track layouts? The new configs no longer integrate the Nascar oval and straight sections. Will be a completely new experience for everyone.
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    quikgt

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  quikgt on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:31 pm

    Oleg P wrote:From my observation the East course looked completely cleared of pavement during construction. There are no guarantees that camber or pavement angles are going to be the same they were before. Look at South to oval transitions before and after paving. Maybe someone should drive all the possible courses after they are paved before discussing them.

    Dude. If you've driven there, you're qualified to discuss the track. Driver safety should be our #1 concern, PERIOD. The concrete barrier was installed for corner worker safety and is still there. The concerns were about the increased speeds if both South banking and East straight were combined. Are you suggesting someone should drive around in an SUV to determine if the track would be safe for Richies' or Gregs' Vette? Let's get serious before someone gets hurt. NASA uses a chicane in a clockwise direction into South, for that same reason.
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    civicminded

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  civicminded on Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:43 pm

    Spartacus. The new layouts do allow us to combine the Nascar banking at South, and the East straight, and that is one of the five courses being considered.
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    Spartacus913

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Spartacus913 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:25 pm

    civicminded wrote:Spartacus. The new layouts do allow us to combine the Nascar banking at South, and the East straight, and that is one of the five courses being considered.


    Thanks for clarifying. Do you have finalized track maps illustrating the five courses being considered?
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    Oleg P

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Oleg P on Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:42 am

    quikgt wrote:
    Dude. If you've driven there, you're qualified to discuss the track. Driver safety should be our #1 concern, PERIOD. The concrete barrier was installed for corner worker safety and is still there. The concerns were about the increased speeds if both South banking and East straight were combined. Are you suggesting someone should drive around in an SUV to determine if the track would be safe for Richies' or Gregs' Vette? Let's get serious before someone gets hurt. NASA uses a chicane in a clockwise direction into South, for that same reason.

    If you want a chicane for safety reasons, surely you can tell the track that one week before the event? What is the point of debating surface situation right now when nobody knows what it is?

    And don't drive around in an SUV. I'm sure there is at least one street legal Corvette that can make the trip.
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    civicminded

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  civicminded on Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:39 am

    Oleg. EMRA will have the use of both South and East, and can determine whatever courses they want, which is why the configurations are being discussed. As far as "debating surface situation right now", when would you like the club to do that? One week prior to the event as you suggest? In my previous post, I mentioned excessive speeds as a concern, NOT track surface. Fact is, if the new surface is not as bumpy, then speeds may be even higher, and the chicane should definitely be included.
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    Oleg P

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Oleg P on Wed Feb 13, 2013 10:49 pm

    civicminded wrote:Oleg. EMRA will have the use of both South and East, and can determine whatever courses they want, which is why the configurations are being discussed. As far as "debating surface situation right now", when would you like the club to do that? One week prior to the event as you suggest?
    As I said, I would suggest doing it after someone drives the courses. If paving has been completed, all that should be needed is to arrange for an appointment with the track. Right now I do not have a functioning race car but I would go and drive around in the tow vehicle if needed.

    In my previous post, I mentioned excessive speeds as a concern, NOT track surface. Fact is, if the new surface is not as bumpy, then speeds may be even higher, and the chicane should definitely be included.
    One of the issues brought up was bumpy and off-camber surface. Another one was speed.

    As far as "excessive speed" goes, Pocono Long clockwise has two Nascar turns followed by a hairpin left. Is that configuration more excessive than one Nascar turn into a less than hairpin that is being discussed?

    Lastly, why would you own a high HP car and not want to go fast? I can understand being concerned with losing engines by holding them at redline for 30 seconds straight or suspensions if transitions are bumpy, but "excessive speed" I just do not. People crash everywhere. What are your thoughts on Watkins Glen? A good number of drivers seem to be freaked out by it.
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    quikgt

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  quikgt on Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:10 pm

    ".....I would go and drive around in the tow vehicle if needed." Great idea! bounce I'm sure EMRA would love for you to pay for East/South rental the week before, and then inform the board about the track conditions.

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    Spartacus913

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Spartacus913 on Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:09 am

    Would love to hear the chief instructors thoughts on this discussion...
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    Oleg P

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Oleg P on Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:46 pm

    Spartacus913 wrote:Would love to hear the chief instructors thoughts on this discussion...
    I do not recall any students complaining about Pocono courses, even running the oval with a different club and cording Hoosiers on cars so equipped.

    It is only racers that seem to be afraid of driving.

    To be fair, pavement transitions at Pocono are much friendlier to cars with street suspensions.
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    quikgt

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  quikgt on Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:13 pm

    "It is only racers that seem to be afraid of driving." If I was racing a Miata, I would surely be as unconcerned as you. "Stuff" happens a lot faster in a big bore racer. Fortunately there are others who are not only concerned for their safety, but for the safety of others.

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    Oleg P

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Oleg P on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:36 am

    What is the point of having a big bore racer if you want Miata speeds?
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    quikgt

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  quikgt on Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:51 am

    If I wanted Miata speeds, I would have bought a Miata. It would have been a lot cheaper. If you're the kid driving the Miata with the missing bumper, I remember passing you a few times. That's fast enough for me.
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    Oleg P

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Oleg P on Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:39 pm

    Now that we both know who I am, maybe you can enlighten me as to who you are.
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    wreckerboy

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  wreckerboy on Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:29 am

    Oleg P wrote:It is only racers that seem to be afraid of driving.

    Allow me to shed some light on the differences between racing and TT. I speak as (amongst other things) a racer, and a multi-time TT champion.

    One reason is suspension - a race car can be differently set up on it's suspension than it's TT counterpart because it is not, by definition, a dual-use vehicle with the compromises inherent in that choice. As such, a "typical" TT car can be a lot more forgiving on bumpy pavement because it can be more softly sprung than a dedicated race car. A minor bump that is felt on a street driven TT car can move a racer over a lane or two (the best example that comes to mind may not be relevant, but before the re-pave a few years ago Charlotte Motor Speedway had a bump in NASCAR 3 that was mild in a street car at 100 but would move my car over a half lane at 115). A racecar can be set up with a lower ride height, and is now running the risk of dragging spoilers, brake ducting, etc.

    While both disciplines are demanding and challenging, racing also adds one additional element to the equation - traffic. While pavement changes are fair game, mix that into a pack of cars moving on edge close together at speeds similar to or faster than TT, and it's all different. Another concern for racers because the possibility of incidental contact can get ugly real quick when a pavement change is encountered as it is happening. While we (as racers) don't want contact and try to avoid it*, the reality is that it can and does occur. I've seen my share of contact induced minor slides become rolls because a car "trips" over a relatively small break in the pavement. The exit of T10 at Summit was notorious for this for years. Does that mean that we plan our race around it? Absolutely, and we should, trying to avoid high risk maneuvers where possible.

    I hope this helps explain why pavement concerns are larger for racers than TT'ers. It's not just about speed - my Miata is not going as fast as a 'Vette or even as fast as many of the street driven TT cars, but it's about the entire picture.

    Rob, Hero To The Momentum Challenged, Retired

    *Yes, I'm a Spec Miata guy, and yes, I typed that with a straight face. :
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    Oleg P

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  Oleg P on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:01 am

    All I suggested was that prior than discussing old track peculiarities, someone check out the new track in order to verify that old peculiarities are still there.

    For the record, my TT Miata is stiffer than all (legal, surely) and lower than most (I imagine you can run SM lower but with softer shocks what good would it be?) SM cars. And while I spent a lot more hours running TT and DE than wheel to wheel, I have an idea of the differences. Saying that wheel to wheel racing involves traffic is like explaining that track days cause brake wear. I get it.

    I also fully understand that ordinary folk will not be inspecting track surface prior to events. This is something that is arranged by a phone call from whoever is in charge of this sort of thing at EMRA to Pocono track management.
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    SBRacing

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    Pocono South

    Post  SBRacing on Mon Mar 04, 2013 11:12 pm

    I believe that the south course
    now when combined with the east course will be in
    the clockwise direction.
    there is a chicane before entering the oval.

    that is one configuration. but all configuration are essentially the same
    just a little longer straights and chicanes are the diffs.

    We will be using both south and east courses together
    I am trying to see if the board will let us do different configurations on different
    days in the same weekend. what is the consensus on that.
    would that be something cool that we want to do?
    or is it too much unknown, so to speak.

    Im not sure throwing in new corners or taking out chicanes
    to let the big bore cars open up is a good idea or not.
    but we can do whatever configuration we want.
    Its all new

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    TOMJIGSAW

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  TOMJIGSAW on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:00 pm

    Cory & EMRA Board

    The configuration of both South & East courses is counter-clockwise.,
    Why would the combo be clockwise? Makes no sense.

    Furthermore,
    the layout of the east pit exit is dangerous when run clockwise.
    the layout of the south pit exit is dangerous when run clockwise as well.

    For the safety of all involved please DO NOT run the course clockwise.

    The issue should be whether to add the chicane AFTER the banked turn or
    not, there should not be an issue of clockwise/counter-clockwise.

    Please clarify what the EMRA board is going to do here.
    People want to make plans NOW, so please inform them what they
    are registering for.
    The official name for the longest south-east track is option#3.
    2.15 miles with the option for a chicane.

    Thanks
    Tom M
    former chairman

    PS: anyone interested in the new track layouts at Pocono can contact me
    @ tom.jigsaw@verizon.net & I will email it to them.
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    jimmypet

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  jimmypet on Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:00 pm

    I know there is alot of new pavement at Pocono,,, which no one has seen yet,,, but I have been to events that ran both the East and the South course in both CW and CCW.
    I have seen the track maps. No reason those could not be run either direction.
    I see no "Danger" over each other.
    Just stage smart.

    Why limit yourself if the tracks can be run both directions.
    The old East course was a blast running in either direction.

    Racing is dangerous.
    Dont drive into things.
    Dont drive faster than your talent level.
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    TOMJIGSAW

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    Re: Civicminded -- a couple of answers

    Post  TOMJIGSAW on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:06 pm

    Jimmy
    "staging" is not the problem, it is coming
    off track and on track that is the problem.

    Racing is dangerous. Not a reason to ignore a safety issue.
    Pitting in and out clockwise at south or east course is more dangerous
    than going counter - so why do it??

    If you have seen he maps then look at the
    point where cars going on track meet the cars already on track.
    Clockwise is more of a problem - especially for amateur racers.

    Tom M

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