Dual Point Scoring Time Trial Weekends ... Open Discussion

After several correspondences for thoughts, and opinions; I thought it time to utilize the power of the Forum.

The Topic -- Should Time Trials have Points awarded on each day an EMRA Time Trial Session is on the schedule???

Simply put; at an event day that has scheduled Time Trial sessions; points towards the season championship would be awarded. What does this do; it increases the number of events that make up a TT Championship season.

So why the discussion? Is this something the current TT program and participants want?? Is it something we feel is needed to promote EMRA's TT program??

I'll start..
.. Money!!! Time!!! Money!!! .. There's not enough!!!
and for (lets be honest) a trophy.. The same trophy we currently are awarded (and proud to be presented) with the current single day schedule. I'll admit, I've planned my budget, travel, timeoff to coincide best with this year's TT schedule so I may contend for the Championship. Doubling the number of events to achieve the same. That's a financial and personal budget problem. And if unable to contend by shear "lack" of attendance; and left with the choice to run an EMRA event for the sake of running, versus more convienent dates of other organizations; I may choose the latter.

Sure, it be nice to have "more" events on the schedule; but I'm in the mindset this infers more events on different dates at different venues. (I know that's a problem in the NorthEast; but hopefully you see my point.)

.. Time Trials is the purest GrassRoot Motorsport.
Sure there is Auto-X; and Wheel-to-wheel. But of the these series; it is the only form available to the Street Driver to enjoy and compete where (and we'll be honest again) alot is at risk. Many are daily drivers. Few are purposely prepared. Is it right to ask a Street car to be pounded for a weekend for a championship?? Sure, its the owners discreation. Its their ride. Their money. I won't expand more on this point as each of us chooses our own limits. But food for thought.

-- What best defines a Championship?
Lets look at this in a simple manner;... How many point events do we (the TT community) feel will make Championship runs exciting??? Too me; those events that bring out the most cars. Not who runs the most events.

I won't speculate why this topic is being discussed. But if it's goal is to "boost" attendance, I think perhaps this will be counterproductive. Sure we need to boost the attendance on Sprint Days. TT Practice sessions have helped; but saying they will be "Points events" to bump the entries?? You may simply wind-up; switching the "better" day. I'll take a Sunday morning return trip over the GWB rather than a Sunday evening return trip over the same roads.

Please share your thoughts, and lets see where this takes us...
Regards..
Paul Barbuzza
Two time EMRA ST4 Time Trial Champion ('94 ,'11)
Former EMRA Time Trial Chairman

btw: if converting the Sept-NJMP and Nov-Summit weekends to dual points?? I'm out.. For reasons mentioned above, and mostly for the late change in the schedule. That is simply not fair. Personal schedules have been planned.

I think adding the TT schedule to the weekends does boost the scheduled attendance. How many race cars are there compared to the "street" cars? The club is doing an admirable job of balancing the needs of competitors and their ability to pay for the meets. I gave up a long time ago on trying to compete for a championship when EMRA started adding 2+ meets at Lime Rock to the schedule, as I've never been able to meet LRPs' ridiculous noise requirements. Mid Ohio's also too far for me. Now I try to pick the meets that don't involve an overnight stay, (no hotels, meals), and attend those that have more bang for the buck, (Pocono, NJMP, Summit Point). Maybe EMRA can pick one day for the weekend for points, and allow you to attend that meet towards your championship.

I would have to disagree with changing the format of the time trial schedule mid season.
This #1 is very unprofessional. 2. This is definitely not fair to the guy's who have planned out the season already, as far as time & money budget allows. 3. Is this all really necessary for a bowling trophy at the award dinner at the end of the season.

I thought this is what EMRA is all about:
A little over 40 years ago, a few local car clubs joined together with the vision of building a better place to race in the Northeast. Since then, EMRA has grown and developed to become one of the premier sanctioning bodies on the east coast. Our goal is to provide top competition without sacrificing any of the enjoyment - We race hard and always have FUN

Guys there is a simple fix to our problem. Since there are so many events this year, get rid of the rule that you have to attend more than half the events to contend for the championship. This way it's based on points and not attendance. In all the years I've been racing, it never mattered how many races or events a person attended, what mattered was the number of points at the end of the season. As far as running dual points scoring time trial weekends, it's not fair to change the schuedule in the middle of the season. Even on the pro level they do not run "dual points weekends." It's always practice and qualifying the day before "raceday." Most of us are not able to afford the costs (i.e. registration fees, lodging, etc.) to stay overnight for dual weekend events. I was only able to attend one event so far this season. That means even with the way things are right now, I would have to be at every event from now until the end. I already know that's not possible so...does that mean I don't have a shot at this years championship???? If I run FIVE events, thats not good enough???? It's getting out of hand!!!! Get rid of the "MUST ATTEND AT LEAST HALF OF THE EVENTS TO BE ABLE TO CONTEND FOR THE CHAMPIONSHIP" rule!!!! Problem solved.

Oh yeah, and what Buzza said!

I'll second/third whats already been mentioned. I don't feel that more points events=more attendance. At least for me, I don't have the time and money to run a full weekend for every event and I'm sure many other TTers are in the same boat. I'd just end up picking the day that fit my schedule the best.

We do this for fun and part of the fun for me is the competition. I'm alright with losing to a faster driver because they proved they're better than me and it shows that I need to improve. Losing to someone who has the ability to attend all the events while I don't makes me feel like I got cheated out of a $7 trophy. No one likes to lose when they don't have control of the outcome and thats what having more points events does.

I have to admit that when i heard of this issue i had to really think about it.. I can see that as a not for profit organization as is EMRA this may make sense on the surface as the idea that it MAY bring in more paying Time Trialer's will bring in much needed funds to promote and better the CLUB... and i use CLUB as opposed to business because thats the difference that makes EMRA better then other organizations.

as far as scheduling and budget goes and the other items stated above (like risk that we all except and wear and tear to the DAILY DRIVER cars that make up most of the time trial field) Me and my buddies that come chose EMRA because of it lower fees and local tracks.. When the season schedule first came out, i too made all my plans..budget.. necessary upgrades.. days off at work ... and most importantly to some, agreements with my better half as to time away from honey-do lists, and of course time away from the "honey" herself. that last statement may sound wimpish, but we all know that it is true. p.s. Im getting married in august..the weekend before Lime rock...and because of planning and agreements im gonna be there at lime rock with well wishes from my better half...she may even be there as she has in the past..(i just agreed to write "just married" on my rear window LOL

I started keeping track of what i spent and needed to spend the first season i ran with EMRA. ( this is my third) after i totaled that number, I stopped totaling it.. because my hobby was costing me the equivalent of 2+ mortgage payments.. (not including the car AND I HAVE A SPONSOR ( i get in-kind services, no cash) that most Time Trialer's dont... that may seem selfish but its true.. Gas / brake pads / repairs / tires / video / entrance fees / motels / food ......and on and on

There would be no way i could basically double my expenses in a season.. it just cant happen...

As i became a better driver, and learned better car control..and learned to adjust on my car to lessen the "abuse" I personally take the chance of winning a 7 dollar trophy and maybe even the championship in my group as the "it was worth it" moment.

would i keep going if the policy were to change?? yes...But iwouldnt go both days... and i consider myself a regular, so how does the club benefit if the Regulars cant do it????

I learned in my line of work ( car dealership ) to never go to the boss with a complaint UNLESS you also had an idea of the solution.. I think that maybe we can attract more / other new people to the club if saturdays were structured differently.. maybe open track days / test and tunes, like open the track to all, run a few laps and maybe come back and change a sway bar, or down load a new tune, or make an adjustment and go back out with out the limit of a 25 minute session while still recording times.. etc etc..this would work for racers also as it gives them a chance to prep for the race on sunday..maybe we can see if some random saturdays can be "license" days where we can deal with students better and get them to be better, safer, drivers, after all, every student we get eventually, hopefully becomes a "regular" and "regulars" pay the bills i think..

i dont have an issue with the way things are now, but its a thought for the masses..we also need to promote this forum at every event.. honestly i dont think most know about it at the events.


p.s.s. anybody know if Tom Otis and Mario got their cars back together (after their off's) for this weekend?? I enjoy being there with them, they are a good bunch of guys.. I didnt see them registered the last time i looked.

Regards, and see you all on Sunday...........hoping to walk away with my $7dollar trophy and be proud of it !!!!

Alex Echeverry / Rallye BMW - PiTBULL Racing / BMW 128 #920


edit: just saw that Tom and Mario are back !!! great news ....

Our 2 day format allows for those who cannot make a Saturday event to score ponts on a Sunday, (and vice versa). Nobody said that our club is perfect but it's perfect for most, which is why we race/TT with EMRA. I have run with PCA, CART, NASA NE and NASA Mid Atlantic, and I can honestly say I have a better time with EMRA. Rather than gripe about schedules, we should all be grateful for the ADDITIONAL track time available to those who may only be able to make 1 or 2 weekends a year. After all isn't it about track time, and fun with your buddies?

Please share your thoughts, and lets see where this takes us...
Regards..
Paul Barbuzza
Two time EMRA ST4 Time Trial Champion ('94 ,'11)
Former EMRA Time Trial Chairman

Dude. Do you really need another trophy that badly to add to your '94 and "11 collection, to try to spoil the fun for us who relish the additional track time?

civicminded wrote:Our 2 day format allows for those who cannot make a Saturday event to score points on a Sunday, (and vice versa). Nobody said that our club is perfect but it's perfect for most, which is why we race/TT with EMRA. I have run with PCA, CART, NASA NE and NASA Mid Atlantic, and I can honestly say I have a better time with EMRA. Rather than gripe about schedules, we should all be grateful for the ADDITIONAL track time available to those who may only be able to make 1 or 2 weekends a year. After all isn't it about track time, and fun with your buddies?

Civic ... I'm not griping about track time on Saturday. Hey, I'm all for TT'ers having scheduled time whenever possible. The direction of this thread pertains to how many point events there should be. My "gripe" is the Board is considering in 2013, to turn "every event day" TT sessions are scheduled; to be for points. I see your point, but what becomes of this type of schedule eventually is all about who can simply make the most weekends; not who necessarily has the best finishes. If you can just make Saturday (for points) you're behind the "eight ball" before Monday if someone enters both Sat/Sun.. EMRA has traditionally been a Sunday TT program (I'm okay if that varies).. I'm all for one weekend with Dual Point Scoring events. But not every weekend.

And for having fun with your buddies.. Don't need to preach that to me..

Just a thought here... I don't know if this even makes sense financially:

Why not just make it a two day TT event? Your overall fastest time in class from the combined days determines your ultimate champ points and trophies. This would accommodate everybody. Show up saturday, show up sunday, show up both days.

-Scott

Scott

I am going to give you a trophy for the best
idea I heard on this topic.

Some of the weekends will be 2 day points & trophies.
(where time permits Like the Glenn & Beaverun).
For the other event days (Like NJMP & Summit Point)
where we cannot have a "full" Time Trial day,
we can do this. It sounds fair for all arguments.

As long as the goal for some people is not just to get
more trophies and more points, this will work.

Keep the thoughts and ideas coming, people.
Probably nothing is going to be implemented until next year.

Tom M
Chairman

racedayvinyl wrote:Just a thought here... I don't know if this even makes sense financially:

Why not just make it a two day TT event? Your overall fastest time in class from the combined days determines your ultimate champ points and trophies. This would accommodate everybody. Show up saturday, show up sunday, show up both days.

-Scott

Great Scott!!! What an idea. The only thing left is to determine when we'll have the trophy presentation, especially if the guys from the previous day have left.

THERE IS ALWAYS A CAVEAT.

WHAT IF IT RAINS ONE DAY AND NOT THE OTHER.

OBVIOUSLY ONE DRIVERS TIME WILL BE BETTER.
(OR AT LEAST IT SHOULD BE)

WE WOULD HAVE TO ADJUST SOMETHING TO ACCOUNT FOR
GOOD WEATHER TIMES VS BAD WEATHER TIMES.

NOTHING IS PERFECT.

TOM M

Which events count for points should absolutely not be changed in the middle of a season. Would you change car classification mid-season? Same reasoning applies - people build cars to rules and their schedules to points events.

but what becomes of this type of schedule eventually is all about who can simply make the most weekends; not who necessarily has the best finishes.

If you are talking about seriously competing for the championship against other drivers that are also seriously competing for the championship, then this is how all championships work. If one driver makes all points events and nobody else does, that drives just about is guaranteed the championship.

That is also the difference between a championship and a race day. In my mind championship is exactly about running a full season, which means traveling farther than I would prefer sometimes and making sure the car is race-ready before each points event. Seriously running for the championship is a bigger commitment than simply showing up for race days when one feels like it/is able to.

It seems reasonable to me to decrease the number of required points events to qualify for the championship, if the total number of points events is increased. I imagine the spirit of that rule is to keep championship out of the hands of drivers who are fast but don't regularly run with the club, and in this respect how "regularly" is defined is up to club members.

As to how many points events there should be, EMRA is easily the "take days off work" club when running for championship. Beaverun is so far away I don't know another club in Northeast that goes there. Between Watkins Glen and Pocono there are 3 weekday points days. That is 5 out of 11 events in the season that are logistically potentially tricky to make, and you are allowed to drop 1 event per season I've been told. NASA NE for example does not run time trials on weekdays, but then the entry fees NASA charges aren't quite the same, maybe there is a connection.

Points events can be added without increasing cost (sort of) if for each added points events drivers can drop one extra event for championship.

Your overall fastest time in class from the combined days determines your ultimate champ points and trophies.

Interesting idea, but if it rains on the day you picked and shines on the other day, with expected consequences for lap times, do you get nothing at all? Are you going to be happy with that? (Edit: Tom beat me to this point while I was revising my post.)

The idea of running the minimum required points events for a championship and expecting to get the championship by virtue of there being no competition does not resonate with me. Sure, sometimes you are in your class by yourself and I think it's valid to get the championship because you ran all events and others did not, but running the entire season in an empty class? Where's the fun in that?

TOMJIGSAW wrote:THERE IS ALWAYS A CAVEAT.

WHAT IF IT RAINS ONE DAY AND NOT THE OTHER.

OBVIOUSLY ONE DRIVERS TIME WILL BE BETTER.
(OR AT LEAST IT SHOULD BE)

WE WOULD HAVE TO ADJUST SOMETHING TO ACCOUNT FOR
GOOD WEATHER TIMES VS BAD WEATHER TIMES.

NOTHING IS PERFECT.

TOM M

All the more reason to encourage attending both days?

The weather is unpredictable. But so is racing. Only in NASCAR do they stop racing in the rain LOL.

I personally want to thank everyone for their opinions stated in a calm rational way.

The EMRA Board has decided to NOT change this years points events.
As Chairman I am pushing for the 2-day one points/trophy event structure.

The discussion will be ongoing as to how to handle next year.
Basically it will be up to the next Board to decide.

The minimum attendance rule is there to put a value on the
championship. Someone can show up with a Race Truck - win one
event and then be crowned TT or Race champion.

Dropping one event - If you miss an event - that event is the "dropped"
one. If you attend all events - the lowest one is dropped and you get 3 points bonus.
This year it is 10 out of 11 events counted.

The plan for next year is to not have any weekday events.
(This years were due to necessity.)

Beaverun & Watkins Glen are not on the plans for 2013.
(due to distance & no weekends available)
No new tracks seem to be available in 2013 except for New England Motorsports Park
(part of Thompson speedway in Northeast CT) and newly paved Pocono.

Yes, we are already planning the 2013 season.

Elections are in November - get involved!

Tom M
EMRA Chairman