April 16, 2011 LRP event question

Is this a full day or half day event?

THE EVENT STARTS AT 1PM AND ENDS AT 5PM.
WE SEPARATE THE CARS INTO 3 RUN GROUPS.
EVERYONE WILL GET FOUR 20 MINUTE SESSIONS.
THAT'S 1 HOUR & 20 MINUTES OF TRACK TIME.
EVERY LAP ON TRACK IS COMPETING FOR
END OF DAY TROPHIES & CHAMPIONSHIP POINTS.

THAT'S HOW WE DO A "1/2 DAY EVENT".

TOM MASCIOPINTO
EMRA CHAIRMAN

What is the projected cost for the "1/2 day event"?

The registration fee for the event is going to be $250.
(if pre-registered and pre-paid)Late registration fee is $50 additional.

Please keep in mind that the track time for our event is more
than prior EMRA TT formats as we no longer have timed runs.
Every lap timed at these events is for trophies/championships.
Since the event starts at 1pm hopefully you should not need a motel.
This event is also on a Saturday so you wont need to take a day off from work.

Other fees/discounts:
TT license: $40
TT school (if needed): $40
Transponder Rental: $35 (plus $420 refundable deposit)
First time entrants get a $100 discount.
Those who have a pre-season deposit with EMRA get 5% or 10% discount
depending on the pre-season deposit.

Tom
EMRA Chairman

REGISTRATION FOR THIS EVENT IS NOW OPEN.

First of all, I love driving, sprints or time trials. As we all know sprint racing attendance is lousy at best (not enough competitors), and although I will compete in as many sprints races as my schedule allows (not enough), I would like to enter TT competition as well. HOWEVER, racers can't trophy on TT! I guess I'm materialistic in that I would like to get a $5 trophy if I'm lucky enough to place top 3, like other clubs do. But tell me, why would I want to spend $250 competing just for cheers?
The answer that I received every time I asked EMRA officials this question is that sprint racers are more experienced & have faster cars than TT. To that I say, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Have you looked at the caliber & modifications of some of the TT cars? And how about their drivers? I find that just like in sprint racing, there are novice as well as very experienced drivers.
In today's economy, I believe that EMRA should not pass on ANY entry money, and they're losing a lot by not offering any sort of trophy or award for the winners (racers) in TT. I know many others that feel the same as I do and go to other clubs to time trial, such as COMSCC & NASA.
EMRA's not making too much off of sprint racing. The money is in time trials!
In my opinion, EMRA should reconsider their position on this issue & spend the extra $5 on a trophy or two in exchange for the $250 each competitor spends just to participate.

That's my two cents.
Mario

Mario,
This exact topic was covered at EMRA's last board meeting.
Modification:

A racer may race and time trial but not both for points
and/or trophies.
You no longer have to wait a year to go from racing to TT.
Once a TT'er enters the racing program he does not have to stop
the TT program.

If you want to race for a championship then you TT for fun.
If you want to TT for a championship then you race for fun.

We never want one person being champion in both formats.
It is not a money issue.
(FYI the trophies are about $17.50 - no cheap trophies here - lol)

So before entering your first event of the year you have to declare
whether you are running for TT or race Championship.

EMRA Chairman
Tom Masciopinto

Let me add an opinion to "We never want one person being champion in both formats." It's not that EMRA doesn't want that to happen. It's that we'd like to give more people a chance to win trophies and championships.

Marty

quote "We never want one person being champion in both formats"
i'm not talking about points or championship in TT just the trophy.

that's the point i was trying to make above,
"racer competing on a TT for trophy"
NOT POINTS/CHAMPIONSHIP, otherwise it is nothing more than a track day, not a competition since there's no trophy given to said racer.
i'll try to explain the money point one more time, say 2 day event @ pocono i will enter the sprint race day one (say $250) but you have a TT on day 2, Racers/I might stay & pay a fee ($250 day 2)if they/I can compete for trophy since i'm already invested on the trip to pocono, otherwise i can pack up & go home (no XTRA $250 for EMRA), the competition/trophy IS THE INCETIVE!

bump

This exact issue will be addressed at the next EMRA board meeting
on March 15th. Just after that I will post the answer which will be EMRA's policy.
Thanks

if all you want to do is "support the organization" you can stay home & send a check for the entry fee+ hotel+ food+ fuel & then you really be doing a whole lot of supporting

speaking of support when we attend a tt we tend to instruct as well, now that'$ $upport

one more thing, no ego involved, it's about investment & returns while having a whole lot of fun doing it

Running against the racers was always a good thing. Sometimes you learn a thing or 2, sometimes you taught them a thing or 2.

NOTE: I've been on both sides of this fence, both as an active Time Trialer, as an active racer.

Many moons back, racers were seperated out of the time trial results. The reason was because the racers had better car prep levels and better driving skills than the typical TT entrant. It was felt that to the typical Time Trial entrant it was unfair to have to compete against a racer because of their inherent handicap. Keep in mind that at that time EMRA had a very healthy and active TT base, with many classes having many active season-long championship points battles, so the level of entrant there was more than just a casual "come out to the track and have some fun" person.

As a TT'er competing under those rules I benefited more than once when I got beaten by a racer but still scored higher finishing points. It also helped me up my driving and car prep skills so that I didn't get beaten by those pesky racer types. Since then, I've moved on to wheel to wheel competition (and let me tell you, EMRA Time Trials is a fantastic training ground to learn to drive) and could conceivably enter Time Trials. No slight to the TT'er out there in my class (SSM), but if I don't beat you on a given day at a given track, there's something seriously wrong with my game. I get a ton of seat time every year and my car prep is on a whole 'nother level since I last Time Trialed in 2007.

It's not fair that I compete with somebody who has not made the same level of commitment with what could be his/her street car vs. my no compromises racecar on dedicated fresh race tires, race brake pads, a gutted interior, a prepped and suspension, etc., etc., etc., with every rule advantage taken. Yes, I know the same set of rules apply to both of us (racer and Time Trialer), but the real world says that very few Time Trial cars are going to be prepared to that level. The real world also says that I am also willing to take more risk to go fast with my trailered car that doesn't necessarily have to get me to work the next day than someone who doesn't enjoy that luxury.

It's not fair for racers to compete directly against Time Trialers for points/trophies. It can be very beneficial for Time Trialers to be out there with racers as a learning opportunity, though I've seen some TT'ers that the racers can learn from as well!

Rob
Hero To Nothing In Particular

i think wreckerboy presents very good point of view for sure but, i will say that not all tt's drive their cars to the track or that they have a lower level of commitment than racers, furthermore some are tt's for life since they are not comfortable/interested/willing in racing, in other words racing side by side & a higher risk of contact with other cars, still's it's a tough argument.......
and a tough call for the club officials, maybe it should be put out for a vote?
i think @ the end of the day it is what it is & the participant votes with their money to compete for cheers with EMRA or elsewhere for trophy

As a guy that started time trialing with EMRA and still run 95% of my track time with you guys, I agree with Rob.

While I do value the lessons learned from the racers I will say that if I had to compete against full blown, gutted and stripped down racers I would not run nearly as much. Just like someone said it is only about trophy's and pride but to come out and know every time you show up you are not competitive why come.

Like Rob said I get home on Sunday night and have to turn my car right back around and go to work on Monday with it.

Rob and I were both on the EMRA Board back in the 90s when this rule was adopted, so perhaps I can add a little of the history to what Rob has already accurately stated are the reasons the rule was adopted. In the early 90s, EMRA pretty much had an even 50/50 level of participation between racing and time trialing. Most every weekend was divided so that races were held on Saturday and time trials on Sunday. Many racers would race on Saturday and then stay and time trial on Sunday.

Most every time trial event was won by a racer. Nothing to do with the talent of the respective drivers, it was simply a combination of seat time and car prep. Aside from the extra day of track time that racers got every weekend compared to time trialers, they also were able to develop their skills a lot faster in the races compared to the time trial events.

The rule was not adopted due to complaints from time trailers. From what I remember, the Board simply saw it as a matter of fairness to the time trialers. Back then very few time trialers prepped their cars to any level of race car development---they were almost all 100% street cars. So the Board recognized the inherent unfairness of allowing racers to compete for points in time trials.

I still think it is a good rule and given the fact that time trialing has developed over the years so that people are fully prepping their cars, the modification that the Board has made letting racers run but having to choose one championship seems like a fair compromise to me.

Take care.

Tom Valet

Having just read TomV's comments the following occurred to me--perhaps racers should be allowed to compete in the TT area for a TT Championship but instead of being grouped with the TT class splits there could be "Big Bore" and "Small Bore" TT championships for current racers. I can't say I've done a comprehensive study of lap times but have many times observed slower classed race cars/drivers faster than TT drivers in cars 2 or 3 classes "faster". Perhaps with the use of transponders rather than the old method of having specific laps to make your official time a "big bore" or "small bore" class will shake out to follow the class pattern but perhaps not---often within a race lower classed cars do run faster than others classed faster.

I happen to agree with TomV and Focus189.... their points are well founded. and as a related/unrelated point...isn't this why Nascar did the same thing with the sprint car drivers driving in the Nationwide series.. Imagin how those Nationwide guys felt every weekend when there low buck team gets beat by the high buck Sprint car guy running in Nationwide and never being able to win a championship?? But i digress.

As a TT'er myself (Hooked last year 3 events so far, plan on going to 4 or 5 this year) I found great pleasure to have Trophied 3rd in my second attempt.. that 17.50 trophy sits proudly in my garage I wouldnt have if they included the racers that day..

With no disrespect to the racers, The cars just arent the same no matter how "prepped" they seem to be.. you just cant compare a prepped race car to a weekend warrior prepped street driven Daily driver. apples and oranges..

Just imagine if i in my 230 HP BMW 128i had to compete for trophies against a race prepped corvett for example... and i do because we are in the same class !!! I am hoping to improve this year over last year, and ive done a couple of tweaks to my car to help, but by no means is it "prepped". its still my ride home and to work everyday.

My friends and I go to TT because we like to see which one of us wins amongst us, have fun, drive the cars the way they were meant to be driven, and stay off the streets. Mind you im 42... my days of hotrodding on the street are long gone, BUT i do love to drive and feel that EMRA has given me the venue to do just that.

Just my .02 and yes, selfishly, i do like the trophies in my garage..

Focus189 wrote:As a guy that started time trialing with EMRA and still run 95% of my track time with you guys, I agree with Rob.

While I do value the lessons learned from the racers I will say that if I had to compete against full blown, gutted and stripped down racers I would not run nearly as much. Just like someone said it is only about trophy's and pride but to come out and know every time you show up you are not competitive why come.

Like Rob said I get home on Sunday night and have to turn my car right back around and go to work on Monday with it.

i find this quite interesting, strictly from the business point of view ($$) why pass on the potential to add $ to the coffers especially when the racers are already @ the track, maybe the solution is to add a parallel TT for racers? (trophy not points) the question would be then "is there that much interest from racers to compete in a TT?" speaking for myself, the extra day is not burden but an incentive, as it's easier to justify the expenses divided by 2 days, in other words $ VS fun

Update on this issue:

EMRA racers cannot compete for Time Trial Points OR trophies.

EXCEPTION: Fastest Time Of day trophy: awarded to THE Fastest time of the day,
Racer or Time Trialer.

More info:

Most EMRA events: at Beaverun, NJMP Lightning, Pocono & Summit Point will be 2 day races
giving Racers plenty of track time and no need to compete against Time Trialers.

However, If a racer does attend a Time Trial event, they are doing it for fun, track time,
and possibly the FTD trophy.

Thanks for your patience.

Tom Masciopinto
EMRA Chairman

Kudos to EMRA-Good Call!

Steven #13Corvette ST-2

thanks for considering this issue, i'm looking forward to running with you all @the pocono sprint race in october
m